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    What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

    Hi Forum Users,

    A recent post in another forum sub group raised this question (at least in my mind). The question being, what do Merchant store owners, integrators, developers and groupies WANT from the forum that they are not getting. Conversely--cause lets give credit where credit is due--what do you like?

    I'm interesting in hearing anything and everything..though less about 'forum' features and more about forum content.
    Bruce Golub
    Phosphor Media - "Your Success is our Business"

    Improve Your Customer Service | Get MORE Customers | Edit CSS/Javascript/HTML Easily | Make Your Site Faster | Get Indexed by Google | Free Modules | Follow Us on Facebook
    phosphormedia.com

    #2
    Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

    Since I am the offending party in that forum sub group, I guess I will go first. First of all, I am referring to the Miva Merchant community as a whole, not just the forums, however I will start there since that is the topic of this thread.

    My Observations:

    With Miva Merchant making HUGE strides in bringing new and better core functionality to the platform, a change in the community was inevitable. However, I was somewhat surprised how much of an impact was made on the community and forums that was once the life blood of Miva Merchant for so many years. (heck it was a selling point) With that change, I began to notice a different tone. Instead of users, module developers and experienced store integrators having discussions, it turned into a platform of "give me the code/answer".

    This of course has always existed within the forums, but it seems to have become the standard these days. I see the same handful of users asking the questions, with the same handful of remaining old timers answering, providing code and solutions. I don't see any new blood.

    I quickly found myself no longer wanting to contribute to the forums some years back. I got tired sitting down to come up with a possible solution for user questions, only to have them turn around and say I don't get it, give me the code.

    This tone poured over into other areas of the community as well. Module support tickets started to become more demanding. Instead of "I think a great feature for your module would be...", it turned into "you are a complete moron for not having this feature in your module and if I don't see it in two days I am asking for a refund and switching platforms".

    Some Contributing Factors:

    I remember being at the Miva Merchant conference where it was recommended module developers move to a more software as a service (SAAS) business model as a way to drive future development and help cover support costs. I think it has been proven that this model does not work with Miva Merchant modules, unless you are offering a free connector to a larger SAAS solution supporting multiple platforms. Existing module developers either saw this coming and jumped ship, creating a much large SAAS offering, or they stayed in the community and tried to hammer it out with a variety off business model attempts.

    The loss of a number of these long time and experienced members of the communty are still being felt today. With existing module developers riding out their offerings until it is either replaced by core functionality, or sales plumit to the point where it makes it no longer profitable to keep the module alive. As a result, the existing module development community is in shambles at this point. Please don't take that as I am pointing the finger at these developers, as that is not the case. I fully understand the current position many of these developers are in from a business perspective.

    As things come full circle and the Miva Merchant commuty realizes there is still a need for modules, we find ourselves with a very limited pool of remaining developers/offerings.

    I sat down and looked at the Miva Merchant module development business with a fresh set of eyes a few weeks back and I quickly found there is simply no money in it, in it's current form. I know what I am going to say next is going to offend a few, not my intent, but the module market has been cheapified to the point where I am not sure there is any pulling it back. (it is like trying to make money off selling Dell and Gateway computers)

    I also feel this cheapified module market has inhibited the development of more advanced module offerings. At a $25-$45 price point, that's not enough to cover the time involved with a single support ticket, let alone the creation of advanced features and future development.

    To that I say the market is completely unattractive to new developers/fresh blood.

    Another contributing factor in my opinion has been Miva Merchant's support of existing developers and store integrators in the community. Unfortunately Rick Wilson (and recently poor Brennan) has had to listen to my endless rants about my discontent with Miva Merchant solicity clients for their design/development services, the inibility to better manage client hosting/services, the feeling that Miva Merchant is my competitor and not my partner, and a number of other grievances. While I truly appreciate that Rick and Brennan took the time to listen to my rants, I was shocked to find out that myself and one other developer/integrator in the community were the only ones to complain in over 12+ months. This tells me one of two things, either I have completely lost my mind and Rick thinks I am a complete moron, or this community is dead.

    As with the module developers leaving the community, I think we have lost a large number of store integrators as well.

    Over the past few years, the Miva Merchant conferenses have been geared more towards the end user/store owners, which I think is great, however I feel developers and store integrators have been lost in the shuffle. The only reason I have to attend the Miva Merchant conference these days is to try and obtain future roadmap plans. Outside of that, it is a wasted trip/funds for me personally. I truly believe it is in Miva Merchant's best interest to attract and support developers in the community again versus relying solely on end user sales. I would be curious if the lack of developers is starting to show in conference attendance.

    To tie this all back into the forum discussion, I often wonder if the forums are still necessary. Would everyone be better served to simply contact module developers, store integrators and Miva Merchant support directly? I definitely see a need for better resources in terms of documentation and functionality. One of my pet peeves right now is the fact that Miva Merchant posts documented template changes to an open forum post. I find myself having to dig through comments, questions and discussions, weeding out the necessary template changes needed so that I can implement for my clients. I would love to see an "official" locked post documenting things like required template changes, then if someone has a question/comment, they can open that up for discussion in another thread, or Miva Merchant could implement an FAQ on the original. (just thinking out loud)

    Anyways, sorry to be so long winded, lot on my mind lately. I think years of frustrations just poured out in the form of random thoughts, broken sentances and poor grammer :)
    Last edited by Dan - Glendale Designs; 02-03-13, 10:23 AM.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

      One of my pet peeves right now is the fact that Miva Merchant posts documented template changes to an open forum post. I find myself having to dig through comments, questions and discussions, weeding out the necessary template changes needed so that I can implement for my clients. I would love to see an "official" locked post documenting things like required template changes, then if someone has a question/comment, they can open that up for discussion in another thread, or Miva Merchant could implement an FAQ on the original. (just thinking out loud)
      This one is solved, we also post those in PDF format in the Reference Guide Appendices. www.mivamerchant.com/referenceguide people have not gotten used to using the Reference Guide (from what I can see) but it's the Go To Place for official Miva Merchant product documentation.

      As for the need for the Forums, I watch the traffic/posting level on the forums closely and it's as high as ever (as is Conference attendance).

      One of the peculiar things I've notices as these changes to our community that you describe take place has specifically been the demographics of the conference.

      From 2000 - 2006, Miva Merchant never sold more than 100 Conference passes to any Conference. The kicker was that group of 100 was a fairly tight knit group of people who definitely were the heart of soul of this community. In fact on more than one occasion in the old days the conference either almost didn't happen or had to be rescheduled due to lack of attendance/income to justify its existence.

      From 2008 (we didn't have a conference in 2007) - 2012 (and about to be 2013) the average Conference attendance has been 300 - 400. The different has been the makeup of people, more business owners, other people from the ecommerce community and a definite trend away from the initial 100 (in fact at this point there's probably only a couple dozen of those initial 100 who still attend).

      As for active Web Developers who build stores in Miva Merchant today vs the old days, it's very hard to quantify but based on the affiliate payouts we make for our hosting, my suspicion is that it's steady to growing ever so slightly. With again a very big difference from the early group of conference attendees, they're more business focused (often it's from an agency) and being a member of a community is not part of their plan.

      I'm very interested to watch this thread, to me the Community aspect of Miva Merchant was always very telling and amazing and I still find it alive and well in the communications I have daily with lots of user, developers, etc... but it's definitely changed A LOT and it's far from the "rag tag" (and I mean that with the utmost love and respect) bunch that started with Miva Merchant in 90's and peaked in the early 2000's.

      Finally one reason I suspect you've had a different experience vis a vis competing with Miva Merchant than most, is that I would estimate most of your business comes from the "community" if you will and the nature of those people is to also call us (we don't do any proactive outbound selling for Professional Services as you and I have discussed at length) and that causes a natural tension with people who are also "known" in the Miva community because those same people who call us, also call you.

      What we see in the newer web developers who've come aboard since 2007 is that they generally don't get much if any business from the Miva "community" and they all seem to have a niche. The most common Niche is being a local well known Web Developers to where they live, the next most common thing we see is the niche of a vertical (e.g. doing Schwag stores for existing companies that don't want to run an ecom store but want to sell Sweatshirts with their usually well known brand) where they are super well known in their vertical and they use Miva as the ecom tool to deliver their offering.

      I agree with you 100% that when the dust settles on us switching from being a plug in based platform that required dozens of modules to make it work the way you wanted, to being the 90% solution out of the box (where our goal is that 90% of our customers don't require any third party mods to run their business), that modules will once again be seen as a positive and necessary force and people will clamor for them (at least those 10% who need them will). I also worry about who will build such modules, but it's hard to predict those types of changes and when opportunity arises my sense is that someone will show up to take advantage of it.
      Thanks,

      Rick Wilson
      CEO
      Miva, Inc.
      [email protected]
      https://www.miva.com

      Comment


        #4
        Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

        I should clarify on the clamoring for modules, I mean that specifically when people wind up comparing Miva to an ecom platform that doesn't allow modules or plugins.
        Thanks,

        Rick Wilson
        CEO
        Miva, Inc.
        [email protected]
        https://www.miva.com

        Comment


          #5
          Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

          Dan, you couldn't have said it any better. Yes, I'm one of those offending store integrators that does ask for code solutions. There is a method to my madness (at least in my own mind). Years ago I learned how to integrate this stuff by looking at code - specifically the stuff from uncomplied non-OUI stores. I learned how to "install" a lot of Bill's modules by looking at how someone else coded it in. With that thought in mind, I had hoped that by asking for a "coding solution" it would become part of the forums and there by searchable. Sort of a repository of code snippets - like what you had and I tried to have too (remind me I have to revisit my radio button code - the latest revisions to the PayPal module have really screwed that up).

          I've had to come back and dig for those changes you've mentioned. I do check the PDF to see if they are in there, but usually not. It would be great to have just an Appendix of all the changes. Because, unless you start with a scratch store, you will be missing some. Again, it is code snippets.

          Something I had mentioned to Rick was the need for some sort of ID that could be included with support tickets that we open on behalf of our clients. Sure, I still make a noob mistake every now and then, but instead of giving the scripted answer that would be given to a noob, I'd love a "hey Leslie, trying rolling the code back" instead of a detailed out line of what the rollback feature is and how to do it.

          I got a little frustrated the other day when I was trying to find the code snippet that Jim from support had sent me (for the PayPal radio button issue), so I opened a support ticket only to be told that I could hire Professional Services to do the coding for me. Thank goodness I was able to search through my old emails and files to find it. I just realized why I thought the reply was so odd, I recall Rick mentioning that he wanted us developers/integrators to be on the same page with our coding. I guess I could have emailed Jim or Brennan directly but I figured they were busy. Maybe we need to get some sort of protocol in place for situations like this.

          I just noticed that while I've been trying to type away with my thoughts, Rick has chimed in. Perhaps maybe he might be willing to get together with those of us that are part of the "old guard" (my term of endearment) to see where we are at. Not sure how many are coming to the conference this year, I see less and less each year.

          But anywho, guess I'll read Rick's thoughts now - yes I still miss the smilies
          Leslie Kirk
          Miva Certified Developer
          Miva Merchant Specialist since 1997
          Previously of Webs Your Way
          (aka Leslie Nord leslienord)

          Email me: [email protected]
          www.lesliekirk.com

          Follow me: Twitter | Facebook | FourSquare | Pinterest | Flickr

          Comment


            #6
            Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

            With again a very big difference from the early group of conference attendees, they're more business focused (often it's from an agency) and being a member of a community is not part of their plan.
            What we see in the newer web developers who've come aboard since 2007 is that they generally don't get much if any business from the Miva "community" and they all seem to have a niche. The most common Niche is being a local well known Web Developers to where they live, the next most common thing we see is the niche of a vertical (e.g. doing Schwag stores for existing companies that don't want to run an ecom store but want to sell Sweatshirts with their usually well known brand) where they are super well known in their vertical and they use Miva as the ecom tool to deliver their offering.
            Rick,

            With those two statements, I think you just validated me questioning my presence here and the need for a community forum, outside of free support. Don't get me wrong, it's good for Miva Merchant and a handful of module developers, but it's not good for someone like me as you have clearly pointed out to me on a number of occasions :)

            Comment


              #7
              Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

              Fair enough, although I'll say this it certainly can be good for you or anybody.

              It's just different than it used to be.
              Thanks,

              Rick Wilson
              CEO
              Miva, Inc.
              [email protected]
              https://www.miva.com

              Comment


                #8
                Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

                Dan, I think you'll find that over time the prices of modules has continually increased. Is it possible for someone to create one new off-the-shelf module and make a living? Difficult. Reverse engineer an existing module and make a copy cat, even more difficult.

                When Miva Merchant was the only game in town for a reasonable price, store owners were receptive to spending a few hundred for modules. Now with the competition out there, Miva needs to put 90% of the popular features in the core product. They are doing that at a rapid pace. The E-ticket ride for module developers has nearly reached the end. As Rick pointed out there will still be that 10% of stores that need some sort of module. But no longer can a developer create a module and expect to sell 100+ copies so he/she could divide the development costs amongst 100 buyers. Hence the $25-40 module will be a thing of the past. The business model will change to on-demand development with module costs $500-$5,000. Now back to the original topic.

                The forum is still the go-to place for store solutions. There are many ways to skin a cat and where better would someone ask the question for how to do something? Granted, many want the solution handed to them on a platter and are not willing to hire a designer; but that is the nature of a one size fits all shopping cart system. The really BIG guys are going to call Miva's design folks. They don't have time to hunt down someone to work on their store (i.e. their livelihood) and trust a stranger to do a great job. The medium to small folks are more likely to ask questions in this forum in hopes of saving some design costs. Based on conversations in the forum, they may end up paying for a design solution or buy a module to do the task. But that has always been the case. Or they may get a module recommendation and they ask the module supplier who they trust to implement the solution they need.

                If you want something to get more participation in the forum and possibly more visibility for designers, convince Miva to include a window called trending topics in our forum in some conspicuous place (admin screen, Miva home page, ????). Then post the 10 most recent topics from the forums. I often get emails like, "do you have a module that.....". I refer them to the forum as I recently saw their subject discussed. Almost with a blank stare in their next email, they ask, where is that.
                Bill Weiland - Emporium Plus http://www.emporiumplus.com/store.mvc
                Online Documentation http://www.emporiumplus.com/tk3/v3/doc.htm
                Question http://www.emporiumplus.com/mivamodu...vc?Screen=SPTS
                Facebook http://www.facebook.com/EmporiumPlus
                Twitter http://twitter.com/emporiumplus

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

                  Ren,

                  Just my perspective: I don't think I ever looked at the forum as a place to acquire work. And aside from just "another" place to announce things like modules, its not looked at by us as a marketing tool. The main reason we participate is to better understand the needs of store owners and integrators. In fact, that was really the initial idea behind this thread (though I see I might need to make another specific to Store Owners/Integrators<g>)

                  But I do see changes. The big change I have seen is that the number of post that just talk, ask questions, debate non-technical issues has dropped off...and that, rather recently.

                  Yes, far too many posts are "can you write the code for me for free" types of post, which, if i can do it off the top of my head, I don't really care--but when you have integrators constantly asking (demanding?) full function coding, then yea...I usually don't keep responding.
                  Bruce Golub
                  Phosphor Media - "Your Success is our Business"

                  Improve Your Customer Service | Get MORE Customers | Edit CSS/Javascript/HTML Easily | Make Your Site Faster | Get Indexed by Google | Free Modules | Follow Us on Facebook
                  phosphormedia.com

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

                    William,

                    I agree...I think a "window" into the forum is a must for the Merchant admin. Afterall, Forums are the original "social media" long before facebook made it ugly<g>. Since its coming from the Admin, the link could auto log them in (create and account if they don't have them) and in a perfect world, put the Merchant version/engine/framework into the sig line--and perhaps optionally a URL to the actual site.
                    Bruce Golub
                    Phosphor Media - "Your Success is our Business"

                    Improve Your Customer Service | Get MORE Customers | Edit CSS/Javascript/HTML Easily | Make Your Site Faster | Get Indexed by Google | Free Modules | Follow Us on Facebook
                    phosphormedia.com

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

                      Bill, I completely agree with your statements on module development and Miva Merchant's need for 90% core functionality. That said, I suspect there will still be a need for 3rd party modules in the future, however the price points will have to come up on retail offerings for it to be a viable business model.

                      I also agree with Rick's statements on agencies taking on a large portion of the development market, however they have a horrible track record so far. I have been a sub-contractor and/or part of the cleanup crew with the number of agency projects and to say that the store owner was left with a sour taste in their mouth is an understatement. (there are exceptions of course)

                      It's kind of ironic, without the outdated Miva Merchant community, the agencies don't have a pool of experienced Miva Merchant developers/integrators. (though yes, they can go direct to Miva Merchant developement services) I foresee a push for new experienced Miva Merchant developers/integrators in the future. (just an observation)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

                        Bruce, I agree the Miva Merchant forums are not a primary source for advertising/projects. Have I gotten a lot of work off these forums over the years, you bet. (and Rick pointed that out) I honestly haven't been fully engage in the forums for some time. I have responded to support questions related to the KSE Analytics module when they pop up and that has been about it. I may answer something here and there if it is quick as you stated.

                        My original rant was about the community as a whole, not just the forums.
                        Last edited by Dan - Glendale Designs; 02-03-13, 03:12 PM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

                          I miss the camaraderie of the forums from years ago, and the mailing list from before that. Unfortunately as the number of users of the software increase, and as more and more features are added (more complexity), there's going to be a lot of one time or occasional posters diluting what used to often be off-topic friendly chats on random things. I feel like we still have that at the conference though; it's the one time each year where I can have a lot of "remember such and such from conference '02" conversations with people, and there are a lot of familiar faces from just the past few years that have been returning so there are new groups of friends starting to build.

                          Regarding developers, I'm in complete agreement with Dan about experienced and knowledgeable developer/integrator being a big future demand. The participation in the developer training series suggests a lot of people are really trying to get a much more in-depth understanding of the product to go beyond the 'how do I move this thing to the other side of the page' type questions. Some of these participants are actual developers, but there are still a lot of store owners doing the training. As is often the case, many of these store owners will come to the realization that their time is more cost effectively spent on their products or business than trying to be a web developer on the side, and they're going to hire someone to do that work for them. The more features the software gains and the more feature-rich shopper expectations get, the more work there will be to hire out. I think the forum will still probably be one of the primary avenues for store owners to find those types of developers.

                          I like the idea of an easier way to the forum via the admin; I can try to bug the right people on that. We're already working on better integration from the admin to support after Bruce and I discussed it at last year's conference.
                          David Hubbard
                          CIO
                          Miva
                          [email protected]
                          http://www.miva.com

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

                            Giving out snippets of code is one of the best ways to acquire an account for future business. If it is something simple like giving someone a snippet of code to change the way their header is displayed - awesome. Whether you realize it or not, helping that one person with a quick easy snippet goes a long ways, and when that person needs something much more intense or complicated, he/she will remember the person that freely gave that snippet - and will be much more likely to contact that person for their "extreme makeover" when needed.

                            I am very familiar with coding and have been using Miva from version 3.14 (ewwww). LOL I have solicited many developers on this forum for work that was going to either be out of my comfort/knowledge zone or was going to be too time consuming for me to do. All of that work has come from other members on this forum that I have watched give "snippets" out to others. Two things that I get from this is their knowledge on doing things - and their style. I tend to pick those that have similar programming styles to my own in hopes that I can better understand what they have done and incorporate that into my own knowledge banks. :)

                            I find this forum one of the most valuable resources I have. I don't comment on every post - but I watch, read and learn from nearly all of them. Sometimes it is just an easier or more simplified way of doing what I already do, other times it gives me knowledge and new ideas that I never thought of.

                            Anyways - that's my opinion and it is worth exactly what you paid for it. :)
                            Kent
                            www.awindofchange.com

                            ~~Once you take flight your eyes will forever be turned skyward~~

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: What Do You Want From the Merchant Forums?

                              I miss the camaraderie of the forums from years ago.
                              I've thought about this all weekend and one other thought I have on this, is that the earlier in the life of an industry, the more likely it has that camaraderie feel to it. The PC industry had this in the 80's, the ISP/Web world had this in the 90's and Mobile is going through it right now.

                              Which I think also explains why traffic to the Forums is as high as ever yet the camaraderie feels lower. I think many people are like Kent (Gamelord) above who are very appreciative of the Forums but aren't necessarily jumping into every post (and they read a lot more posts than they comment on).
                              Thanks,

                              Rick Wilson
                              CEO
                              Miva, Inc.
                              [email protected]
                              https://www.miva.com

                              Comment

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